Saturday, June 21, 2008

Marriage in California

I am continually struck by how strongly I can affirm, respect and agree with someone one day and then just be blown away by something the next. John Mark Reynolds is a brilliant philosopher and I often read even his political works knowing that they will contain wisdom and insight that many other "conservative" writers posts do not. Reading Reynolds article about the upcoming Gay Marriage Ban vote here, I could not help but feel compelled to respond. It lacked his usual well thought out and well stated arguments and simply equated to a schoolyard "I saw it first." This last election has been rough on Moral Majority Republicans I know, but one cannot allow a series of stinging defeats to disintegrate the level of discourse. I am fairly certain he will never read this but hopefully it will provide you all some talking points to discuss among coworkers and friends.

First and foremost, let me lay out that this is a political and philosophical argument, not a theological one. I affirm, as a Christian what the scriptures say about homosexuality. I also affirm what they say about submitting to authorities and yet often change lanes without signaling thus have trouble justifying the harsh treatment people who are homosexual receive at the hands (and blogs) of those claiming to be Christian. All this to just reassure you that I am not part of the (oft discussed in right claiming Christian claiming) gay agenda. I simply try to treat people equally as Christ did. Christ loved the least and the lost, do you? I will end my plea to not be destroyed as a heretic to Conservatism and/or Christianity (which are not linked) please note the ever so wise Thomas Jefferson to the nation during his first inauguration in 1801, "Every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle."

What we have here is a fundamental misunderstanding both on the role of government and the authority of the church as well as a scary overlap in the two (anyone remember the great Reformation?)

Churches are debating this issue as much as voters. Thus, having the government step in and make the decision for us sets a dangerous and terrible precedent. What's next? Do some theologians in the dispensationalism or covenant theology debate get the government to decide that Biola University or Westminster Seminary need to change their theology (I know at least one A-Team Blogger has his fingers crossed.) Of course all (well most) Christians can agree that this is preposterous. How about at your office? Should the government solve that pesky TPS report debate? (Office Space reference for those not in the know.) Absolutely not. It is the sole decision of churches, denominations and parishioners how they will handle same sex couples wishing to be married. Reynolds got it right here, marriage is largely a religious institution. Why is he then advocating government intervention when some churches disagree? Some churches are theologically liberal and take the approach that the homosexuality passages in scripture were cultural constructs. Some churches take another stand and say that homosexuality brought down the Roman Empire and we are next. Others see homosexuality as wrong, but like me do not want the government to be involved in religious decision making.

The government should never have gotten into the business of marriage. And make no mistake it is a business, having married recently and lost a marriage licence I know they are making some cash. The requirement for marriage licences in U.S. has been justified on the basis that the state has an overriding right, on behalf of all citizens and in the interests of the larger social welfare, to protect them from disease or improper/illegal marriages; to keep accurate state records; or even to ensure that marriage partners have had adequate time to think carefully before marrying. But all of these things are not the role of government as outlined in the Constitution. Prior to the mid 19th century marriages were not regulated by the state, but once the influx of "inferior races" started they became important to "protect the social welfare." What redemptive value does alienating people and making them hate you have? C. S. Lewis said in Mere Christianity that Christians shouldn't be trying outlaw divorce by legislation. The church is clear on its position, he said, and we would know who was really a follower of Christ and who wasn't by their conduct, so there was no point in trying to force people to obey Christian morality. After all, he went on, we wouldn't like it very much if the "Mohammadans" came in and tried to outlaw alcohol! As I write this in a nod to Lewis I have cracked open a can of Pabst Blue Ribbon (I know really high class). I think the implications of this hero of the faith to the modern debate are clear but just in case you can substitute the words "gay marriage" for the word "divorce" and the argument still makes a lot of sense.

Last thoughts here. To be certain there are a ton of competing viewpoints here. Reynolds (and most Moral Majority Republicans points) article makes it seem like their are two choices: Christian or Not. It is my contention that the gay marriage debate has more to do with one's opinions on the role of government than one's faith in Christ or even moral values. To set up such horrible dichotomies, and us versus them, viewpoints only serves to further de-legitimize Christianity's influence in our culture. So here is my Pauline statement on the matter (referencing Acts 17:17-34), "I am amazed at how focused the US is at making sure that people have equal access to marriage licences."

4 comments:

John Mark N. Reynolds said...

Hello, Scott.

John Mark Reynolds here.

I don't think you understand my point, if you think me a "Moral Majority" person.

I think there is a vested state interest (though a weak) one in helping one kind of relationship (the kind that makes future citizens). I think, on the whole, that men and women are not the same . . . that the difference is even deeper than the "plumbing." I also think that the state has no interest in protecting or advancing most other kinds of relationships even when they are good (like friendship), because I believe in small government.

I don't believe any of these things based on my religion. All of these ideas make up the core of my argument which is:

1. Men and women are not the same.
2. When two "others" meant the result is rich . . . and fecund.
3. The state has a vested interest in this kind of fecundity.
4. Even if moral (I think it is not) homosexual relations are not the "two others" kind of relationship and will do essentially nothing to produce future citizens.
5. Expanding a benefit (which is needed since child rearing is hard and taxing work) tends to dilute its meaning and usefulness.

This is the loose argument in favor of traditional marriage.

Second point: I am not a church/state absolutist (are you?) who believes you can ever draw a line in the house (like the old Brady Bunch episode) and put Religious Things on one side and Church things on the other. Following Aristotle I think politics is an art and not a science. . . and that the old English "muddle through" is the best plan.

If there was an realistic chance the state would "dump marriage" as an institution (and I am not sure that would good), I would in fact support it. As it is, we will have diluted marriage which is mainly in place to use as a hammer to force (in my opinion) those with traditional notions about the morality of homosexuality to shut up or follow the practices of the plurality who think it moral.

JMNR

John Mark N. Reynolds said...

One final point:

It is your piece that is really revolutionary. Christians have lived in the English speaking West (I limit my comments there because we are dealing with the English common law idea of marriage) for hundreds of years. When we become a majority in a region, as citizens the laws tend to reflect our values. What else should they reflect?

We created the institution of marriage (in the English Western sense) to strengthen the culture . . . and it has served us well. I know there is marriage in other cultures . . . but we refined the old Roman idea . . .

It really would be revolutionary (and as a Burke conservative I don't like them) to jettison this idea and simply stop supporting marriage at all.

If I were secular, I would understand that my culture had Christian and Jewish roots and accept them. If I had to change things, I would do this very, very slowly.

I would also try not to corrupt the language by saying a new thing (even if good) is just the same as the old thing.

JMNR

Scott Overpeck said...

Wow, John Mark Reynolds just lit me up. I am giddy. I will try to get past my hero worship here and move to your points. Thank you though so much for dialoguing with me on this. I really did not expect that. I should write criticisms of other heros of mine and see if I get to meet them too.

Forgive me but I am going to attempt to get to the crux of each of your points for brevities sake as well as to make certain that I do in fact have them correct. If you feel that I have set up any strawmen or over simplified anything do let me know as I really do believe we should as a community come together for constructive conversations like this more often.

1. The state can and should regulate marriage because it has an interest in the propagation of the species.

2. Expanding a benefit (I would assume this is in reference to taxes, social security, hospital visitation, etc.) dilutes it.

3. Church State seperation does not apply to this situation.

4. Marriage laws used to force people to accept immoral relationships.

5. Laws should reflect values of the culture.

6. Marriage has strengthened culture. Why mess with a good thing?

7. Changing culture should come slowly.

8. The acceptance of gay unions as marriages distorts the meaning of the word.

I hope I have not misunderstood or misstated your positions. Below are my replys.

1. I do not believe centralized planning of any kind can ever be effective. History's example is that the more socialism that is introduced into a system of government the more failure is evident. A nation that practices population control either up or down is doomed to fail. As a small gov't conservative I cannot see this as a credible role of gov't.

2. Agreed. I do not think we currently have a very fair tax system nor one that is very easy to figure out largely due to the amount of previously discussed central planning that the gov't already does. Benefits for marriage (traditional or otherwise) do not make sense. We are overtaxed to be certain, so I am sure glad to receive my deductions, but think as an argument against allowing gays legal marriage licenses this is not convincing. We should seek to change the tax code, not deny access.

3. I agree that one's faith informs decicion making process. I also agree that there will be overlap from time to time. But I am loathe to give the gov't a foothold into my church's decision making. The issue has never been raised in my church but I would certainly agree with you on how to handle it in my church. This is a difference of opinion not of principle.

4. I think I may have oversimplified this point and hope that you can add some clarity to it. If I am understanding you correctly then I simply disagree. Other individuals private contracts being approved does not force you to accept the morality or immorality of the contents of said contract. When a married man goes to a strip club and pays for a lap dance a verbal contract is enacted. This is not a good situation and can have a detrimental effect on the man's marriage and is a cultural/societal ill which I do not accept as right. As such, I regularly meet with friends to discuss our character and study up on radical accountability and grace. i have not though gone out and tried to outlaw lap dances or verbal contracts for that matter.

5. This is a philosophy of gov't question that could get very long, but while I disagree largely with this statement I will say and you stated that a plurality of people seem to be ok with gay marriage so it appears the California courts are looking to do just that (reflect the culture). That being said; Jefferson, Reagan, Goldwater and Taft (Mr. Republican himself) all advocated largely laissez faire stances. The 9th and 10th amendments were enacted to encourage us to keep decisions local, and I would venture to say that largely the more difficult a decision the more localized it should be so that in keeping with your statement the values of the culture can be reflected in the laws. If one looks at the foundation of our nation this is how it would handled. Religious groups (or cultures) would band together in like minded communities this ensure traditional morals (theirs) were preserved.

6. Is this verifiable? How do skyrocketing divorce rates factor into this? Should we take into account that in states that have allowed gays to marry the divorce rate is averaging 10%? Just not sure what a strengthened culture looks like.

7. It has. Homosexuals have been a visible presence since at least Biblical times. 6000 years later they are asking to get a gov't document that really isn't worth all that much to 50% of people of all faiths or none (with the exception of Mormons who have the lowest divorce rate in the world).

8. I agree that language distortion has occured, but believe that it occured when common law marriage was shifted to state licenced contracts. Marriage licenses are not marriage. Committment to stay together even when the warm fuzzies are gone is marriage. A dedication to treat your partner well even when you are seething mad is marriage. Finding out that our second surprise baby is on the way and having that brief moment of panic with a huge smile and a hug is marriage. Marriage is about love, committment, dedication, a contract with God to stick it thru thick and thin, 1 Corinthians 13. Marriage licenses are about taxes, property and hospital visitation. Who cares who gets a license? I know what marriage is really about and no amount of gov't intervention will change that.

Scott Overpeck said...

And Might I add happy anniversery...

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